No, very few people care about the ethical implications of what OP 's talking about. WSB saw a perfect situation and exploited it. He's right again. //Been told I'm posting too fast again by the benevolent left wing moderators on HN so this is what I would have replied: "From the comment on WSB that was a story on here before it got flagged off the front page: "We blocked all bad words with a bot, which should be enough, but apparently if someone can say a bad word with weird unicode icelandic characters and someone can screenshot it you don't get to hang out with your friends anymore. I am convinced that to speak freely as a collective, sometimes we must stop certain individuals from abusing their freedom of speech within our forums. With regards to number one, what will happen is exactly the reverse of what you’re saying. As for GME, just put on your diamond-grade hands for once and hold until Friday's squeeze. When they said: "you are trying to silence us" what they meant is "we want to establish the old power again, so we can silence you. The infamous VW short squeeze was also caused by significantly less short interest: Very true, but the less shorted or at least the bigger the difference between available shares and the short position the harder it is. It will look somewhere between an egalitarian social movement, or a few now-wealthy loudmouths who took everyone else for a ride. Gold funds, who do nothing but sit on giant vaults of gold. So people can gather and speak and protest without approval of corporate overlords. If anything, public discourse enables people to observe and see potential clusters, covid could be traced to tweets talking about pneumonia in November and December of 2019. I’m not sure I buy it, and I’m not sure there is a fundamental difference between dinner club (as Matt Levine wrote) where hedge fund managers talk about their favorite stock picks and people on an open forum openly talking about companies that they think should be purchased or sold. For the sake of argument, one can say that actions of forums like WSB should also be regulated to protect them, just like laws for compulsory wearing of helmet (while riding two-wheelers) or putting seatbelts (while riding cars) exist, even though one would think that education and common sense would make them do this automatically out of self-preservation instincts. However the missing key here is that a lot of times, these are genuine "political movements" before they've cooled & solidified, and exist solely as mis-directed or nebulous emotion, hence the "hateful" and distasteful content. This is why no smarty pants bureaucrat should be allowed to wiggle out arbitrary powers by coming with "interpretations," "extended definitions," or "legal theories.". Right. Are Terms of Service above criticism now? But when Andy Spano ran for county executive in Westchester County, N.Y., he put every press release and position paper onto a bulletin board. That is kind of what happened with Tesla to some extent, although they already had a great brand a genius owner. It doesn't help that a lot of things financial mechanics are esoteric and not commonly known, or that most people don't know the difference between hedge funds, banks, market makers and brokers. The trouble is that you would need to require brokers to prevent short selling stocks that have been already been borrowed and short sold. This is not what happened here. It's not just Tesla, either. It’s not your job to decide what is an efficient place for capital. On the other hand, timing of these bans are very suspicious, maybe they recieved a phonecall and banned the community under false pretences. You seem to be hinting at the idea that naked short selling should be illegal, which it has been for over a decade. Nothing. The result? I heard Melvin Capital may even have gone bankrupt? "Not ideal" is very different from "let's allocate capital randomly". Reddit limits API usage mainly for IP, so you need multiple IPs to avoid this issue. that's market manipulation and in many corners of the world, that's illegal. Is it not market manipulation when a short seller publishes a scathing report, or when a CEO goes on CNBC or Bloomberg and gives a good opinion of their company or a different one? None of the examples there really makes a lot of sense in this case. Do you refute my claim that it's simple to discover and execute? And asking people to be nice, that's not a bad thing. I believe we're going to see fragmentation in platforms rather than open standards. uncomfortable statements. > If the new regs enshrine the current reality in law then maybe there'll be more hope for fundamental reform. I'm slightly sceptical, because with open standards you still need to do moderation somehow. If you want to use their service you have to follow their rules. We're going to see more fragmentation, and growth of closed platforms perceived by users as "slightly less evil" such as telegram vs watsapp. And 100% country clubs kick you out when you say things they don’t like. It's more like a group of people open a coffee shop in your mall and you decide to close their shop once you learn they serve people who don't speak your language. And you need to review the code of conduct for this platform, as you are in violation and, according to your own logic, should be kicked. Basically what we probably have now is a behavior that is legal so long as no one engages in it. My guess is that majority of users there are traders and employees of such funds, simply using yet another talking space. If the community looks like it's full of people doing gray-illegal things, then normal people (and advertisers) will generally shy away... and lawsuits will not be far behind. If you'd like to change the rules, perhaps defending them every time they're used to hurt your ideological opponents is not the way to do that. I tried googling top mastodon people to follow to no avail. > The difference is retail is going to win AND there's no backroom deal to be made to stop the bleeding. {...} You remove some violent content when contacted by us or others, but not always with urgency. > Seriously. Sure that is possible. This is exactly what was being pushed by WSB. Not to mention, a lot of educated people may be making some pretty educated bets and winning a lot of money; other educated people may just be 'paying' money for a cause that they believe in. If they self hosted in Alabama, I'm sure they would have been fine. Big investors also do it to each other, e.g. The cacophany more closely resembles citizens band radio, complete with handles, harrasment, and anonymous threats. No ofc not, but that is a coffeshop and not a place where the business is sharing stuff. All this and I just want to remind you that we are discussing a web site using "white supremacist Nazis" as a pretext to prevent people from organizing against wall street hedge funds. How does a low share price "destroy the company"? Explaining to people less experienced than myself how a short squeeze works? That it will take days to unwind doesn't really matter - it will top out at some point, and it will go down. It is not market manipulation for short interest to rise above 100%. But colour me unconvinced on this one. I totally agree, but it's not like there's a level playing field now. If the rules of property mean I have certain rights. FT is claiming many are “alt-right” all of a sudden. Pretty sure when krageon said "that's not what they said" they were referring to poster of the original comment that was being replied to - not the know it alls from 90s. Some people will defend them, some people will say the reaction was justified. Fewer than 30. It's why Twitter held off on banning Trump for so long; not so much because of public interest, but because Trump alone kept the platform up, running, active and profitable. We can't let pessimism or apathy depress us into not striving for the ideal. At most, it is a mall telling a coffee shop owner that they need to take care of a small subset of regulars - the teenagers - because they are regularly using offensive speech. Stock can be bough for reasons that have nothing to do with it's market value. I recently tried mastodon, but I found it kind of confusing. > The level of arbitrariness of legal process in legal systems of ex-UK colonies is in league of its own in the world, and USA is particularly prominent at that. And then you have different layers of protocol that are all more or less centralized. (Same goes for Facebook/Twitter ...). The very large social media platforms all market themselves as being neutral. At the same time we try to apply principles like freedom of speech and find it completely incompatible with our split view on violence. Nor is it a violation of free speech. Otherwise, someone who comes in not knowing anything about the situation, and sees the comment and assumes that the WSB discord was banned because its uers were describing their day to day issues living with disabilities. They probably meant that because the guidelines discord has setup are automated bots that occasionally hit innocent people while trying to enforce the rules. The taste of cash. For Americans, talking about "leadership" as if it exists is like believing in the Tooth Fairy. South Park tried to make this argument over a decade ago and they were dead wrong. There's a big difference between some kids screaming in your coffee shop and a community on a website supposedly dedicated to free discussion. So it feels really disingenuous to blame retail for these wild swings when they would not have been possible without the irresponsible hedge fund trading that came before. Not everyone shares your ideas about what the "best" and most "free" discussions are. Now, if you do believe it's wrong and it should be educated against, how would this work? This is a tired old argument and it isn't convincing or effective. You get people to invest in a stock that is expected by the industry to go belly up. You just need to find a hosting provider that's willing to host it. According to the Washington Post, there were nearly 6.3 million members of the finance subreddit /r/wallstreetbets forum on Reddit as of Friday. The WSB are complaining that Reddit didn't give them the mod tools they need. > If you trade specifically to create an unfair impression. I'm sorry my wording was bad. This GME thing is just one little piece of an overall new zeitgeist. I'm sorry but this is a possibly irresponsible take for at least a few reasons. This is the first time netizens capitalize on hedge fund short favorites and it has been surprisingly easy to cause an absolute catastrophy in the order of billion losses for them. I'm not arguing that shutting down or regulating is the best solution, but it is the most likely outcome. No coordinating mechanism, this will die. Moderated content because you are responsible for stuff that's being posted? This delicate balance was at times destoyed by a single person that started attacking people aggresively for who they were rather than attacking the argument they made in a way that makes them understand. Yes, partly. I spent all night going through many of those threads, and I have to say they are ready to join Bitcoin once the SEC cracks down on them and freezes their Robinhood accounts and possibly even their bank accounts linked to Robinhood. Hedge funds have shorted more of the stock than exists. Would anyone even read our signs? Not everyone can get out of an inflated stock with gains, pretty much by definition. There was a bunch of rowdy types running around with their shirts off and a bunch of old people taking selfies. Being reptiles, they won't cry because one or two of their number didn't make it out alive. This exactly what stock market speculation is about, is it? And I say that because we've just launched our own reddit alternative, Retalk.com. I don't understand why anyone would think that the owner of the platform should not be able to dictate the terms of use of their platform or react if those terms are not followed. But then the onus is on Reddit to slacken these restrictions; WSB threads get 100K responses, which is the amount of engagement many social media can only dream of. The insurrection at the capitol this month comes to mind. Be specific. The right to speak is the right to offend. Nobody cares. I'm saying populist shenanigans don't really defeat banker shenanigans. But it’s more like a country club than a town square. I think IRC (which OP mentioned) outranks them all ifor the battle tested warhorse title. What is defined in the law as legal, or not defined as illegal is what is legal. At the core of community moderation is community. Very few people care about what you are talking about. I can buy a stock because i want to own it, maybe i want the voting rights, maybe i want to have standing so that i can file a lawsuit for securities fraud. Yes, as you may have guessed, he’s banned me from the subreddit already; I had made only a handful of posts, most of which were straightforward and relatively nonconfrontational and, indeed, well-received by others in the subreddit. If they don't, the coffee shop is in violation of the malls' leasing agreement. > Why wouldn't someone be allowed to lend out a security they own to someone else? There's been a lot of ink spilled on this story and it seems to have captured the public's imagination. Then they raise money, get a great board, hire industry experts, and go... whatever.. compete with Steam, turn the physical stores into e-sports venues, pivot to game development, whatever. There is a significant chunk of GameStop shares that are not publicly accessible, but could be borrowed against (the shares do exist). If you want to have your own community where you want to have that kind of discourse, you can self host a forum. I have not seen anything indicating that is the case being made with AMC etc. But 2020 is coming to an end. ", In other words, they told the kids not to swear and enforced it but someone came up with a new swearword that the cafe owner didn't recognise (it's hard to think of an analogy for using weird characters to say a bad word) and so the cafe got shut down. 2) There is no easy way to make money doing this - you're literally promoting a collective ponzi scheme (!) I'm 100% with you. What does "public space" even mean anymore? The majority of the money may be from large funds, but the majority of discussion is from working schmos who day trade as a hobby. Social media loves controversy like that. Everybody (well, 99.99%, maybe) accepts that some censorship is necessary, but that not everything should be censored. Anyone can set up a server. The internet needs a true public square, not a private entity masquerading as one that for some reason totally unbeknownst to them has to constantly remind everyone that they are not a public square. > Very few people care about what you are talking about. The fundamentals of government haven't changed a bit. And even if you get around that, you'll have to contend w/ the ISPs that can just block arbitrarily if they so choose. > Yes, it is, it's an abusive short squeeze, which is market manipulation. Yes, I was talking about hasanabi's discord server (a twitch channel) in particular, but I'm sure it's not alone and there are reasons. We owe our great way of life and our emergence from theocratic and monarchical shackles in large part to the ability to express and share ideas freely, this is a big reason why western societies hold that right in high esteem, it was a resounding success, it worked for us up until now and it will continue to do so if we let it. Beyond this, I'm sure there are many funds who try and successfully manipulate the markets, but they try to do it quietly. > A more apt comparison would be a group in a corner having a conversation at a rock concert. in democratic countries, maybe unless a certain political figure "Lemmy is similar to sites like Reddit, Lobste.rs, Raddle, or Hacker News: you subscribe to forums you're interested in, post links and discussions, then vote, and comment on them. For lack of a better example: coordinating and sharing info on how to sabotage deforestation using dangerous methods like putting nails inside trees, which would cause chainsaws to snap and hurt the operators. Then they should make that clear, as the thread and the GP's comments are specifically about the situation with WSB. No asking for in-game money or moneydrops. Free speech isn't what leads to fascist dictatorship, control of ideas does. All of a sudden the WSJ is publishing an article about the founder getting kicked out where he claims the subreddit is full of white supremacists. This is what this year has been like for us. Why is educating people to act more responsibly never ever considered an option? The populism on this issue is completely out of touch with reality. By your standard every newspaper, every TV channel, every website that refuses to publish my views is censoring me. No it's not a perfect analogue. This isn’t a case where the stock will drop in mere minutes. Nothing has changed, except it's a little more extreme right wing platforms now. Colin, I know you fancy that your filleted and deflated dick stuffed up inside your pelvic cavity is the same as a genuine, muscle wrapped, self-cleaning and lubricated vagoo but it’s not. If you want to engage in adult debate, please refrain from personal accusations and strawmen. You won't replace a school teacher with a CD rom. He’s saying this will give people a reason to think more about these things. Maybe then it makes some sense to give better education, but this is obviously a special moment and it's hard to educate people so that they don't engage in a social phenomenon. Let's be completely clear here, this isn't someone speaking out about issues they face in everyday life. For those wondering why the sub went private for a time: "We blocked all bad words with a bot, which should be enough, but apparently if someone can say a bad word with weird unicode icelandic characters and someone can screenshot it you don't get to hang out with your friends anymore". And also, counterproductive. 'Pumping and dumping stocks' is not value creating it's actually quite destructive. The author speculates that this might even ultimately trigger a market correction. The mix of who makes and loses money is going to affect how society sees this. 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